Someone Asked Me...

[f4f3]

"What is your general impression of Americans?"

Which is a hard one. I don't have a general impression of Americans anymore. Probably I haven't had since I graduated from Cowboy movies to Marvel Comics in the early 70's. When I was very young, I had the impression that all Americans were rich. Rich in wealth, rich in goodies - as Nail Gaiman points out somewhere in Good Omens (for some reason I'm sure it was Neil, not Terry), Americans had 20 flavours of ice-cream: maybe even more.
And then I started reading Spiderman, and the Fantastic Four, and The Silver Surfer, and Americans were these liberal, JFK democrats, who wanted a fair shake for everyone. Then there was Richard Condon, with his satirical take on Watergate, and Steve Gerber, who had Howard the Duck run for President, and again, it was the liberal conscience, the belief in freedom, that came across most strongly.
I could run it up through Dave Sim, and Steve Earle, and Warren Zevon till 1992, the first time I travelled in America. Where everyone, from SF to Chicago, was friendly, open, interested and good company.

Through the 90's I worked for American companies, with lots of Americans, and visited and vacationed there. I still haven't found a generalised feel for the place, never mind the people.

If I take a step back, I guess I see Americans as the right sort of people - they believe in equality, democracy, and free speech. The thing is, as I get older and learn more, I still believe in that impression, and feel that it's shared by most people in the world.

Comments

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

My point is that in those states most people certainly don't believe in equality, democracy and free speech and I suggest the proportion who do is lower than you would think in most of the US. Certainly there is no widespread belief in equality in the US and the general notion of democracy and free speech is an extremely constrained one.

[f4f3.livejournal.com]

Again, I have to take you up on the "extremely constrained" notion of democracy and free speech. Compared to where? And as to equality, I can't see any widespread moves to deny the vote to women or non WASPS.

That statement that "most people" in those states don't believe in equality, democracy and free speech just seems nonsensical - maybe we have different definitions of equality, democracy and free speech?

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

My definition of 'equality' would extend well beyond the right to vote. I'd point out that even there a whole host of things are being done to deny the vote to poor people, people who live in the wrong neighbourhood etc. Add to that that in most states anyone who has ever had a criminal conviction can't vote and that the statistics on the unequal application of felony statutes to different ethnic groups show compellingly that non-whites are more likely to be chaged, with a felony (for a given set of circumstances), more likely to be convicted and more likely to receive a sentence that bars them for voting for life and I say that clearly there is a racially and socially biased access to voting rights.

American democracy is constrained by other things. Most notably the extraordinary role that corporate money and corporate lobbying plays in the process. Habermas argues that a viable civil society and informed public discourse are essential for a functional democracy. The US doesn't have them. Clearly this belief is shared by many Americans or more of them would vote.

Free speech... try arguing for atheism in a school in the South and see what happens. I know of biology teachers refused tenure for not sucking up to creationism etc etc.

[f4f3.livejournal.com]

I can't argue with what you say about the application of power to retain power in America - but I also can't see it as any worse than any other abuse of power to retain it, and can (and will) quote worse abuses elsewhere.

Maybe it is right to castigate America for its failures, because its promise is so much greater, but to do that is to ignore that in absolute terms it is a more equal society, a freer society and a society with less hunger than almost anywhere else on earth.

Maybe biology teachers are being refused tenure for not sucking up to the religious orthodoxy, but very few of them are being killed for it. Again, to say that America does not have an informed public discourse is nonsense - covert censorship and overt lobbying do not amount to fatwhahs and corruption.

Discrimination - racism - doesn't amount to death squads and genocides. I don't think the US is perfect - far, far from it, but in terms of aspiration and practice there's more to admire than condemn.